Contradiction between first derivative formal definition and derivative rules?
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When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0},$$ which gives zero.
However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
Why does this happen? what's the reason behind it?
calculus limits derivatives
add a comment |
up vote
17
down vote
favorite
When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0},$$ which gives zero.
However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
Why does this happen? what's the reason behind it?
calculus limits derivatives
6
I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
– AccidentalFourierTransform
Nov 8 at 16:56
1
@AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
– Ister
Nov 9 at 9:17
+1 for a good question.
– Randall
Nov 9 at 13:25
add a comment |
up vote
17
down vote
favorite
up vote
17
down vote
favorite
When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0},$$ which gives zero.
However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
Why does this happen? what's the reason behind it?
calculus limits derivatives
When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0},$$ which gives zero.
However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
Why does this happen? what's the reason behind it?
calculus limits derivatives
calculus limits derivatives
edited Nov 8 at 16:55
user587192
1,17310
1,17310
asked Nov 8 at 15:02
Just_Cause
885
885
6
I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
– AccidentalFourierTransform
Nov 8 at 16:56
1
@AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
– Ister
Nov 9 at 9:17
+1 for a good question.
– Randall
Nov 9 at 13:25
add a comment |
6
I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
– AccidentalFourierTransform
Nov 8 at 16:56
1
@AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
– Ister
Nov 9 at 9:17
+1 for a good question.
– Randall
Nov 9 at 13:25
6
6
I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
– AccidentalFourierTransform
Nov 8 at 16:56
I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
– AccidentalFourierTransform
Nov 8 at 16:56
1
1
@AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
– Ister
Nov 9 at 9:17
@AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
– Ister
Nov 9 at 9:17
+1 for a good question.
– Randall
Nov 9 at 13:25
+1 for a good question.
– Randall
Nov 9 at 13:25
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
up vote
43
down vote
accepted
The rule $(fg)'=f'g+fg'$ works where $f$ and $g$ are differentiable. And $sqrt[3]x$ is not differentiable at $x=0$.
Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:16
17
It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
– ajotatxe
Nov 8 at 15:18
2
It makes sense now.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:19
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
You have $frac{sin(x)}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, which is $frac 00$, or indeterminate. If you express sine in terms of its Taylor Series, and divide each term by ${3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, you will see that you get a series that evaluates to zero at $x=0$. The lesson here is just because you can put something in an indeterminate form, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For instance, one can rewrite $x^2$ as $frac {x^3} x$; that doesn't mean that $x^2$ doesn't exist when $x=0$.
1
Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:53
2
@ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
– Acccumulation
Nov 8 at 18:56
2
I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:58
Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
– Stephen Alexander
Nov 9 at 5:55
@StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 9 at 5:59
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
5
down vote
When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}=0
$$
This is correct since:
$$
lim_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}
=lim_{x to 0} sqrt[3]{x}cdot frac{ sin(x)}{x}=0.tag{1}
$$
However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}tag{2}
$$
(2) does not contradict (1) since (2) is only valid for $xneq 0$.
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
This implication is false:
[Edited later (thanks to comments by MMASRP63 and Paramanand Singh)]
(2) only implies that the limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ does not exists. In other words, $f'(x)$ is not continuous at $x=0$.
$$
lim_{xto 0} {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
=lim_{xto 0}frac{sin x}{x}frac{x}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}
+lim_{xto 0}cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}=1cdot 0+ 1cdot 0=0tag{3}
$$
which together with (1) implies that $f'$ is actually continuous at $x=0$.
2
I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
– MMASRP63
Nov 8 at 18:13
1
Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:56
@MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
@ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I want to add something to user587192's answer.
Indeed, there is no contradiction, and
$$lim_{x to 0} f'(x) = 0$$
as shown before. However, if you don't want to evaluate the derivative using the formal definition, you can use a theorem:
Suppose $f'(x)$ exists in a deleted neighbourhood of $a$ and $lim_{x to a} f'(x) $ exists and equals $L$. Then $f'(a)$ exists and equals $lim_{x to a} f'(x)$.
This is an immediate consequence of L'Hospital's Rule. Notice that both $f(x)-a$ and $x-a$ are differentiable on a deleted neighbourhood of $a$, and $lim_{x to a} frac{f'(x)}{1}$ exists and equals $L$, we conclude that $lim_{x to a} frac{f(x)-a}{x-a}$ exists and equals $L$. Hence $f'(a)=L$.
Indeed, in your example, it would be much faster to calculate $f'(0)$ using the formal definition. However, in some cases the above theorem does help.
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
43
down vote
accepted
The rule $(fg)'=f'g+fg'$ works where $f$ and $g$ are differentiable. And $sqrt[3]x$ is not differentiable at $x=0$.
Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:16
17
It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
– ajotatxe
Nov 8 at 15:18
2
It makes sense now.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:19
add a comment |
up vote
43
down vote
accepted
The rule $(fg)'=f'g+fg'$ works where $f$ and $g$ are differentiable. And $sqrt[3]x$ is not differentiable at $x=0$.
Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:16
17
It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
– ajotatxe
Nov 8 at 15:18
2
It makes sense now.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:19
add a comment |
up vote
43
down vote
accepted
up vote
43
down vote
accepted
The rule $(fg)'=f'g+fg'$ works where $f$ and $g$ are differentiable. And $sqrt[3]x$ is not differentiable at $x=0$.
The rule $(fg)'=f'g+fg'$ works where $f$ and $g$ are differentiable. And $sqrt[3]x$ is not differentiable at $x=0$.
answered Nov 8 at 15:08
ajotatxe
52.1k23688
52.1k23688
Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:16
17
It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
– ajotatxe
Nov 8 at 15:18
2
It makes sense now.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:19
add a comment |
Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:16
17
It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
– ajotatxe
Nov 8 at 15:18
2
It makes sense now.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:19
Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:16
Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:16
17
17
It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
– ajotatxe
Nov 8 at 15:18
It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
– ajotatxe
Nov 8 at 15:18
2
2
It makes sense now.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:19
It makes sense now.
– Just_Cause
Nov 8 at 15:19
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
You have $frac{sin(x)}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, which is $frac 00$, or indeterminate. If you express sine in terms of its Taylor Series, and divide each term by ${3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, you will see that you get a series that evaluates to zero at $x=0$. The lesson here is just because you can put something in an indeterminate form, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For instance, one can rewrite $x^2$ as $frac {x^3} x$; that doesn't mean that $x^2$ doesn't exist when $x=0$.
1
Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:53
2
@ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
– Acccumulation
Nov 8 at 18:56
2
I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:58
Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
– Stephen Alexander
Nov 9 at 5:55
@StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 9 at 5:59
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
8
down vote
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
You have $frac{sin(x)}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, which is $frac 00$, or indeterminate. If you express sine in terms of its Taylor Series, and divide each term by ${3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, you will see that you get a series that evaluates to zero at $x=0$. The lesson here is just because you can put something in an indeterminate form, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For instance, one can rewrite $x^2$ as $frac {x^3} x$; that doesn't mean that $x^2$ doesn't exist when $x=0$.
1
Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:53
2
@ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
– Acccumulation
Nov 8 at 18:56
2
I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:58
Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
– Stephen Alexander
Nov 9 at 5:55
@StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 9 at 5:59
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
8
down vote
up vote
8
down vote
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
You have $frac{sin(x)}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, which is $frac 00$, or indeterminate. If you express sine in terms of its Taylor Series, and divide each term by ${3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, you will see that you get a series that evaluates to zero at $x=0$. The lesson here is just because you can put something in an indeterminate form, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For instance, one can rewrite $x^2$ as $frac {x^3} x$; that doesn't mean that $x^2$ doesn't exist when $x=0$.
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
You have $frac{sin(x)}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, which is $frac 00$, or indeterminate. If you express sine in terms of its Taylor Series, and divide each term by ${3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, you will see that you get a series that evaluates to zero at $x=0$. The lesson here is just because you can put something in an indeterminate form, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For instance, one can rewrite $x^2$ as $frac {x^3} x$; that doesn't mean that $x^2$ doesn't exist when $x=0$.
answered Nov 8 at 17:10
Acccumulation
6,4752616
6,4752616
1
Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:53
2
@ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
– Acccumulation
Nov 8 at 18:56
2
I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:58
Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
– Stephen Alexander
Nov 9 at 5:55
@StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 9 at 5:59
|
show 3 more comments
1
Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:53
2
@ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
– Acccumulation
Nov 8 at 18:56
2
I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:58
Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
– Stephen Alexander
Nov 9 at 5:55
@StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 9 at 5:59
1
1
Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:53
Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:53
2
2
@ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
– Acccumulation
Nov 8 at 18:56
@ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
– Acccumulation
Nov 8 at 18:56
2
2
I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:58
I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:58
Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
– Stephen Alexander
Nov 9 at 5:55
Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
– Stephen Alexander
Nov 9 at 5:55
@StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 9 at 5:59
@StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 9 at 5:59
|
show 3 more comments
up vote
5
down vote
When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}=0
$$
This is correct since:
$$
lim_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}
=lim_{x to 0} sqrt[3]{x}cdot frac{ sin(x)}{x}=0.tag{1}
$$
However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}tag{2}
$$
(2) does not contradict (1) since (2) is only valid for $xneq 0$.
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
This implication is false:
[Edited later (thanks to comments by MMASRP63 and Paramanand Singh)]
(2) only implies that the limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ does not exists. In other words, $f'(x)$ is not continuous at $x=0$.
$$
lim_{xto 0} {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
=lim_{xto 0}frac{sin x}{x}frac{x}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}
+lim_{xto 0}cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}=1cdot 0+ 1cdot 0=0tag{3}
$$
which together with (1) implies that $f'$ is actually continuous at $x=0$.
2
I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
– MMASRP63
Nov 8 at 18:13
1
Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:56
@MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
@ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}=0
$$
This is correct since:
$$
lim_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}
=lim_{x to 0} sqrt[3]{x}cdot frac{ sin(x)}{x}=0.tag{1}
$$
However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}tag{2}
$$
(2) does not contradict (1) since (2) is only valid for $xneq 0$.
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
This implication is false:
[Edited later (thanks to comments by MMASRP63 and Paramanand Singh)]
(2) only implies that the limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ does not exists. In other words, $f'(x)$ is not continuous at $x=0$.
$$
lim_{xto 0} {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
=lim_{xto 0}frac{sin x}{x}frac{x}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}
+lim_{xto 0}cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}=1cdot 0+ 1cdot 0=0tag{3}
$$
which together with (1) implies that $f'$ is actually continuous at $x=0$.
2
I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
– MMASRP63
Nov 8 at 18:13
1
Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:56
@MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
@ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}=0
$$
This is correct since:
$$
lim_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}
=lim_{x to 0} sqrt[3]{x}cdot frac{ sin(x)}{x}=0.tag{1}
$$
However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}tag{2}
$$
(2) does not contradict (1) since (2) is only valid for $xneq 0$.
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
This implication is false:
[Edited later (thanks to comments by MMASRP63 and Paramanand Singh)]
(2) only implies that the limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ does not exists. In other words, $f'(x)$ is not continuous at $x=0$.
$$
lim_{xto 0} {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
=lim_{xto 0}frac{sin x}{x}frac{x}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}
+lim_{xto 0}cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}=1cdot 0+ 1cdot 0=0tag{3}
$$
which together with (1) implies that $f'$ is actually continuous at $x=0$.
When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}=0
$$
This is correct since:
$$
lim_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}
=lim_{x to 0} sqrt[3]{x}cdot frac{ sin(x)}{x}=0.tag{1}
$$
However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}tag{2}
$$
(2) does not contradict (1) since (2) is only valid for $xneq 0$.
and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.
This implication is false:
[Edited later (thanks to comments by MMASRP63 and Paramanand Singh)]
(2) only implies that the limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ does not exists. In other words, $f'(x)$ is not continuous at $x=0$.
$$
lim_{xto 0} {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
=lim_{xto 0}frac{sin x}{x}frac{x}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}
+lim_{xto 0}cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}=1cdot 0+ 1cdot 0=0tag{3}
$$
which together with (1) implies that $f'$ is actually continuous at $x=0$.
edited Nov 8 at 19:48
answered Nov 8 at 16:46
user587192
1,17310
1,17310
2
I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
– MMASRP63
Nov 8 at 18:13
1
Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:56
@MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
@ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
add a comment |
2
I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
– MMASRP63
Nov 8 at 18:13
1
Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:56
@MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
@ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
2
2
I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
– MMASRP63
Nov 8 at 18:13
I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
– MMASRP63
Nov 8 at 18:13
1
1
Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:56
Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
– Paramanand Singh
Nov 8 at 18:56
@MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
@MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
@ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
@ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
– user587192
Nov 8 at 19:49
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I want to add something to user587192's answer.
Indeed, there is no contradiction, and
$$lim_{x to 0} f'(x) = 0$$
as shown before. However, if you don't want to evaluate the derivative using the formal definition, you can use a theorem:
Suppose $f'(x)$ exists in a deleted neighbourhood of $a$ and $lim_{x to a} f'(x) $ exists and equals $L$. Then $f'(a)$ exists and equals $lim_{x to a} f'(x)$.
This is an immediate consequence of L'Hospital's Rule. Notice that both $f(x)-a$ and $x-a$ are differentiable on a deleted neighbourhood of $a$, and $lim_{x to a} frac{f'(x)}{1}$ exists and equals $L$, we conclude that $lim_{x to a} frac{f(x)-a}{x-a}$ exists and equals $L$. Hence $f'(a)=L$.
Indeed, in your example, it would be much faster to calculate $f'(0)$ using the formal definition. However, in some cases the above theorem does help.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I want to add something to user587192's answer.
Indeed, there is no contradiction, and
$$lim_{x to 0} f'(x) = 0$$
as shown before. However, if you don't want to evaluate the derivative using the formal definition, you can use a theorem:
Suppose $f'(x)$ exists in a deleted neighbourhood of $a$ and $lim_{x to a} f'(x) $ exists and equals $L$. Then $f'(a)$ exists and equals $lim_{x to a} f'(x)$.
This is an immediate consequence of L'Hospital's Rule. Notice that both $f(x)-a$ and $x-a$ are differentiable on a deleted neighbourhood of $a$, and $lim_{x to a} frac{f'(x)}{1}$ exists and equals $L$, we conclude that $lim_{x to a} frac{f(x)-a}{x-a}$ exists and equals $L$. Hence $f'(a)=L$.
Indeed, in your example, it would be much faster to calculate $f'(0)$ using the formal definition. However, in some cases the above theorem does help.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
I want to add something to user587192's answer.
Indeed, there is no contradiction, and
$$lim_{x to 0} f'(x) = 0$$
as shown before. However, if you don't want to evaluate the derivative using the formal definition, you can use a theorem:
Suppose $f'(x)$ exists in a deleted neighbourhood of $a$ and $lim_{x to a} f'(x) $ exists and equals $L$. Then $f'(a)$ exists and equals $lim_{x to a} f'(x)$.
This is an immediate consequence of L'Hospital's Rule. Notice that both $f(x)-a$ and $x-a$ are differentiable on a deleted neighbourhood of $a$, and $lim_{x to a} frac{f'(x)}{1}$ exists and equals $L$, we conclude that $lim_{x to a} frac{f(x)-a}{x-a}$ exists and equals $L$. Hence $f'(a)=L$.
Indeed, in your example, it would be much faster to calculate $f'(0)$ using the formal definition. However, in some cases the above theorem does help.
I want to add something to user587192's answer.
Indeed, there is no contradiction, and
$$lim_{x to 0} f'(x) = 0$$
as shown before. However, if you don't want to evaluate the derivative using the formal definition, you can use a theorem:
Suppose $f'(x)$ exists in a deleted neighbourhood of $a$ and $lim_{x to a} f'(x) $ exists and equals $L$. Then $f'(a)$ exists and equals $lim_{x to a} f'(x)$.
This is an immediate consequence of L'Hospital's Rule. Notice that both $f(x)-a$ and $x-a$ are differentiable on a deleted neighbourhood of $a$, and $lim_{x to a} frac{f'(x)}{1}$ exists and equals $L$, we conclude that $lim_{x to a} frac{f(x)-a}{x-a}$ exists and equals $L$. Hence $f'(a)=L$.
Indeed, in your example, it would be much faster to calculate $f'(0)$ using the formal definition. However, in some cases the above theorem does help.
answered Nov 9 at 7:44
tonychow0929
15612
15612
add a comment |
add a comment |
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6
I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
– AccidentalFourierTransform
Nov 8 at 16:56
1
@AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
– Ister
Nov 9 at 9:17
+1 for a good question.
– Randall
Nov 9 at 13:25