Contradiction between first derivative formal definition and derivative rules?











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When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:



$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0},$$
which gives zero.



However, when I use derivative rules I get that:



$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$



and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.



Why does this happen? what's the reason behind it?










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  • 6




    I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
    – AccidentalFourierTransform
    Nov 8 at 16:56






  • 1




    @AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
    – Ister
    Nov 9 at 9:17










  • +1 for a good question.
    – Randall
    Nov 9 at 13:25















up vote
17
down vote

favorite
4












When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:



$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0},$$
which gives zero.



However, when I use derivative rules I get that:



$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$



and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.



Why does this happen? what's the reason behind it?










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 6




    I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
    – AccidentalFourierTransform
    Nov 8 at 16:56






  • 1




    @AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
    – Ister
    Nov 9 at 9:17










  • +1 for a good question.
    – Randall
    Nov 9 at 13:25













up vote
17
down vote

favorite
4









up vote
17
down vote

favorite
4






4





When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:



$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0},$$
which gives zero.



However, when I use derivative rules I get that:



$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$



and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.



Why does this happen? what's the reason behind it?










share|cite|improve this question















When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:



$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0},$$
which gives zero.



However, when I use derivative rules I get that:



$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$



and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.



Why does this happen? what's the reason behind it?







calculus limits derivatives






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share|cite|improve this question













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edited Nov 8 at 16:55









user587192

1,17310




1,17310










asked Nov 8 at 15:02









Just_Cause

885




885








  • 6




    I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
    – AccidentalFourierTransform
    Nov 8 at 16:56






  • 1




    @AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
    – Ister
    Nov 9 at 9:17










  • +1 for a good question.
    – Randall
    Nov 9 at 13:25














  • 6




    I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
    – AccidentalFourierTransform
    Nov 8 at 16:56






  • 1




    @AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
    – Ister
    Nov 9 at 9:17










  • +1 for a good question.
    – Randall
    Nov 9 at 13:25








6




6




I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
– AccidentalFourierTransform
Nov 8 at 16:56




I'm not sure I follow. Note that $sin(x)sim x$ around $x=0$, and so $sin(x)/x^{2/3}sim x^{1/3}$, which goes to $0$ as $xto0$. So $f'(x)to0$, as expected.
– AccidentalFourierTransform
Nov 8 at 16:56




1




1




@AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
– Ister
Nov 9 at 9:17




@AccidentalFourierTransform your comment actually constitutes an answer and shouldn't be just a comment.
– Ister
Nov 9 at 9:17












+1 for a good question.
– Randall
Nov 9 at 13:25




+1 for a good question.
– Randall
Nov 9 at 13:25










4 Answers
4






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up vote
43
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accepted










The rule $(fg)'=f'g+fg'$ works where $f$ and $g$ are differentiable. And $sqrt[3]x$ is not differentiable at $x=0$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
    – Just_Cause
    Nov 8 at 15:16






  • 17




    It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
    – ajotatxe
    Nov 8 at 15:18






  • 2




    It makes sense now.
    – Just_Cause
    Nov 8 at 15:19


















up vote
8
down vote














$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
$$



and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.




You have $frac{sin(x)}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, which is $frac 00$, or indeterminate. If you express sine in terms of its Taylor Series, and divide each term by ${3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, you will see that you get a series that evaluates to zero at $x=0$. The lesson here is just because you can put something in an indeterminate form, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For instance, one can rewrite $x^2$ as $frac {x^3} x$; that doesn't mean that $x^2$ doesn't exist when $x=0$.






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 1




    Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 8 at 18:53






  • 2




    @ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
    – Acccumulation
    Nov 8 at 18:56






  • 2




    I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 8 at 18:58












  • Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
    – Stephen Alexander
    Nov 9 at 5:55










  • @StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 9 at 5:59


















up vote
5
down vote














When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
$$
f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}=0
$$




This is correct since:
$$
lim_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}
=lim_{x to 0} sqrt[3]{x}cdot frac{ sin(x)}{x}=0.tag{1}
$$




However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
$$
f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}tag{2}
$$




(2) does not contradict (1) since (2) is only valid for $xneq 0$.




and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.




This implication is false:



[Edited later (thanks to comments by MMASRP63 and Paramanand Singh)]
(2) only implies that the limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ does not exists. In other words, $f'(x)$ is not continuous at $x=0$.
$$
lim_{xto 0} {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
=lim_{xto 0}frac{sin x}{x}frac{x}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}
+lim_{xto 0}cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}=1cdot 0+ 1cdot 0=0tag{3}
$$

which together with (1) implies that $f'$ is actually continuous at $x=0$.






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  • 2




    I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
    – MMASRP63
    Nov 8 at 18:13








  • 1




    Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 8 at 18:56












  • @MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
    – user587192
    Nov 8 at 19:49










  • @ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
    – user587192
    Nov 8 at 19:49


















up vote
0
down vote













I want to add something to user587192's answer.



Indeed, there is no contradiction, and



$$lim_{x to 0} f'(x) = 0$$



as shown before. However, if you don't want to evaluate the derivative using the formal definition, you can use a theorem:



Suppose $f'(x)$ exists in a deleted neighbourhood of $a$ and $lim_{x to a} f'(x) $ exists and equals $L$. Then $f'(a)$ exists and equals $lim_{x to a} f'(x)$.



This is an immediate consequence of L'Hospital's Rule. Notice that both $f(x)-a$ and $x-a$ are differentiable on a deleted neighbourhood of $a$, and $lim_{x to a} frac{f'(x)}{1}$ exists and equals $L$, we conclude that $lim_{x to a} frac{f(x)-a}{x-a}$ exists and equals $L$. Hence $f'(a)=L$.



Indeed, in your example, it would be much faster to calculate $f'(0)$ using the formal definition. However, in some cases the above theorem does help.






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    4 Answers
    4






    active

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    4 Answers
    4






    active

    oldest

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    active

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    active

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    up vote
    43
    down vote



    accepted










    The rule $(fg)'=f'g+fg'$ works where $f$ and $g$ are differentiable. And $sqrt[3]x$ is not differentiable at $x=0$.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
      – Just_Cause
      Nov 8 at 15:16






    • 17




      It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
      – ajotatxe
      Nov 8 at 15:18






    • 2




      It makes sense now.
      – Just_Cause
      Nov 8 at 15:19















    up vote
    43
    down vote



    accepted










    The rule $(fg)'=f'g+fg'$ works where $f$ and $g$ are differentiable. And $sqrt[3]x$ is not differentiable at $x=0$.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
      – Just_Cause
      Nov 8 at 15:16






    • 17




      It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
      – ajotatxe
      Nov 8 at 15:18






    • 2




      It makes sense now.
      – Just_Cause
      Nov 8 at 15:19













    up vote
    43
    down vote



    accepted







    up vote
    43
    down vote



    accepted






    The rule $(fg)'=f'g+fg'$ works where $f$ and $g$ are differentiable. And $sqrt[3]x$ is not differentiable at $x=0$.






    share|cite|improve this answer












    The rule $(fg)'=f'g+fg'$ works where $f$ and $g$ are differentiable. And $sqrt[3]x$ is not differentiable at $x=0$.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered Nov 8 at 15:08









    ajotatxe

    52.1k23688




    52.1k23688












    • Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
      – Just_Cause
      Nov 8 at 15:16






    • 17




      It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
      – ajotatxe
      Nov 8 at 15:18






    • 2




      It makes sense now.
      – Just_Cause
      Nov 8 at 15:19


















    • Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
      – Just_Cause
      Nov 8 at 15:16






    • 17




      It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
      – ajotatxe
      Nov 8 at 15:18






    • 2




      It makes sense now.
      – Just_Cause
      Nov 8 at 15:19
















    Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
    – Just_Cause
    Nov 8 at 15:16




    Oh, alright I see. But, why is the first derivative able to find it? I mean, I have never really understood the differences between direct derivative rules and formal definition.
    – Just_Cause
    Nov 8 at 15:16




    17




    17




    It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
    – ajotatxe
    Nov 8 at 15:18




    It is possible that $g$ is not differentiable and $fg$ is.
    – ajotatxe
    Nov 8 at 15:18




    2




    2




    It makes sense now.
    – Just_Cause
    Nov 8 at 15:19




    It makes sense now.
    – Just_Cause
    Nov 8 at 15:19










    up vote
    8
    down vote














    $$
    f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
    $$



    and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.




    You have $frac{sin(x)}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, which is $frac 00$, or indeterminate. If you express sine in terms of its Taylor Series, and divide each term by ${3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, you will see that you get a series that evaluates to zero at $x=0$. The lesson here is just because you can put something in an indeterminate form, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For instance, one can rewrite $x^2$ as $frac {x^3} x$; that doesn't mean that $x^2$ doesn't exist when $x=0$.






    share|cite|improve this answer

















    • 1




      Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:53






    • 2




      @ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
      – Acccumulation
      Nov 8 at 18:56






    • 2




      I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:58












    • Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
      – Stephen Alexander
      Nov 9 at 5:55










    • @StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 9 at 5:59















    up vote
    8
    down vote














    $$
    f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
    $$



    and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.




    You have $frac{sin(x)}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, which is $frac 00$, or indeterminate. If you express sine in terms of its Taylor Series, and divide each term by ${3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, you will see that you get a series that evaluates to zero at $x=0$. The lesson here is just because you can put something in an indeterminate form, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For instance, one can rewrite $x^2$ as $frac {x^3} x$; that doesn't mean that $x^2$ doesn't exist when $x=0$.






    share|cite|improve this answer

















    • 1




      Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:53






    • 2




      @ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
      – Acccumulation
      Nov 8 at 18:56






    • 2




      I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:58












    • Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
      – Stephen Alexander
      Nov 9 at 5:55










    • @StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 9 at 5:59













    up vote
    8
    down vote










    up vote
    8
    down vote










    $$
    f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
    $$



    and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.




    You have $frac{sin(x)}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, which is $frac 00$, or indeterminate. If you express sine in terms of its Taylor Series, and divide each term by ${3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, you will see that you get a series that evaluates to zero at $x=0$. The lesson here is just because you can put something in an indeterminate form, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For instance, one can rewrite $x^2$ as $frac {x^3} x$; that doesn't mean that $x^2$ doesn't exist when $x=0$.






    share|cite|improve this answer













    $$
    f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
    $$



    and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.




    You have $frac{sin(x)}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, which is $frac 00$, or indeterminate. If you express sine in terms of its Taylor Series, and divide each term by ${3sqrt[3]{x^2}}$, you will see that you get a series that evaluates to zero at $x=0$. The lesson here is just because you can put something in an indeterminate form, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For instance, one can rewrite $x^2$ as $frac {x^3} x$; that doesn't mean that $x^2$ doesn't exist when $x=0$.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered Nov 8 at 17:10









    Acccumulation

    6,4752616




    6,4752616








    • 1




      Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:53






    • 2




      @ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
      – Acccumulation
      Nov 8 at 18:56






    • 2




      I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:58












    • Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
      – Stephen Alexander
      Nov 9 at 5:55










    • @StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 9 at 5:59














    • 1




      Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:53






    • 2




      @ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
      – Acccumulation
      Nov 8 at 18:56






    • 2




      I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:58












    • Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
      – Stephen Alexander
      Nov 9 at 5:55










    • @StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 9 at 5:59








    1




    1




    Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 8 at 18:53




    Your argument is appealing but incorrect. One can write $x^2$ as $x^3/x$ only when $xneq 0$. What you are trying to do here is to find limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ and show that it equals $f'(0) $. This works here only because $f'$ is continuous in this case. Consider another example where $g(x) =x^2sin(1/x),g(0)=0$ then $g'(0)=0$ but $lim_{xto 0}g'(x)$ does not exist.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 8 at 18:53




    2




    2




    @ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
    – Acccumulation
    Nov 8 at 18:56




    @ParamanandSingh And the OP's application of the product rule is valid for $x neq 0$. So my example is analogous.
    – Acccumulation
    Nov 8 at 18:56




    2




    2




    I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 8 at 18:58






    I think the intent of your answer is to explain how we can make sense of the formula obtained by product rule even when $x=0$. This is something which I believe is not the right way to think about the situation.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 8 at 18:58














    Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
    – Stephen Alexander
    Nov 9 at 5:55




    Wait @Paramanand Singh, how's $f'(x)$ continous here? And in your example why is $g(0) = 0$ ? I'm a bit confused
    – Stephen Alexander
    Nov 9 at 5:55












    @StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 9 at 5:59




    @StephenAlexander: note that $f'(0)=0$ and $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)=0 $ (check this!) so that makes $f'$ continuous. For my example I have chosen $g(0)=0$ this ensures that $g$ is continuous at $0$.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 9 at 5:59










    up vote
    5
    down vote














    When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
    $$
    f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}=0
    $$




    This is correct since:
    $$
    lim_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}
    =lim_{x to 0} sqrt[3]{x}cdot frac{ sin(x)}{x}=0.tag{1}
    $$




    However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
    $$
    f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}tag{2}
    $$




    (2) does not contradict (1) since (2) is only valid for $xneq 0$.




    and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.




    This implication is false:



    [Edited later (thanks to comments by MMASRP63 and Paramanand Singh)]
    (2) only implies that the limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ does not exists. In other words, $f'(x)$ is not continuous at $x=0$.
    $$
    lim_{xto 0} {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
    =lim_{xto 0}frac{sin x}{x}frac{x}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}
    +lim_{xto 0}cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}=1cdot 0+ 1cdot 0=0tag{3}
    $$

    which together with (1) implies that $f'$ is actually continuous at $x=0$.






    share|cite|improve this answer



















    • 2




      I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
      – MMASRP63
      Nov 8 at 18:13








    • 1




      Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:56












    • @MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
      – user587192
      Nov 8 at 19:49










    • @ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
      – user587192
      Nov 8 at 19:49















    up vote
    5
    down vote














    When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
    $$
    f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}=0
    $$




    This is correct since:
    $$
    lim_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}
    =lim_{x to 0} sqrt[3]{x}cdot frac{ sin(x)}{x}=0.tag{1}
    $$




    However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
    $$
    f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}tag{2}
    $$




    (2) does not contradict (1) since (2) is only valid for $xneq 0$.




    and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.




    This implication is false:



    [Edited later (thanks to comments by MMASRP63 and Paramanand Singh)]
    (2) only implies that the limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ does not exists. In other words, $f'(x)$ is not continuous at $x=0$.
    $$
    lim_{xto 0} {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
    =lim_{xto 0}frac{sin x}{x}frac{x}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}
    +lim_{xto 0}cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}=1cdot 0+ 1cdot 0=0tag{3}
    $$

    which together with (1) implies that $f'$ is actually continuous at $x=0$.






    share|cite|improve this answer



















    • 2




      I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
      – MMASRP63
      Nov 8 at 18:13








    • 1




      Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:56












    • @MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
      – user587192
      Nov 8 at 19:49










    • @ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
      – user587192
      Nov 8 at 19:49













    up vote
    5
    down vote










    up vote
    5
    down vote










    When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
    $$
    f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}=0
    $$




    This is correct since:
    $$
    lim_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}
    =lim_{x to 0} sqrt[3]{x}cdot frac{ sin(x)}{x}=0.tag{1}
    $$




    However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
    $$
    f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}tag{2}
    $$




    (2) does not contradict (1) since (2) is only valid for $xneq 0$.




    and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.




    This implication is false:



    [Edited later (thanks to comments by MMASRP63 and Paramanand Singh)]
    (2) only implies that the limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ does not exists. In other words, $f'(x)$ is not continuous at $x=0$.
    $$
    lim_{xto 0} {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
    =lim_{xto 0}frac{sin x}{x}frac{x}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}
    +lim_{xto 0}cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}=1cdot 0+ 1cdot 0=0tag{3}
    $$

    which together with (1) implies that $f'$ is actually continuous at $x=0$.






    share|cite|improve this answer















    When I try to find the derivative of $f(x) = sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)$ at $x=0$, using the formal definition of first derivative, I get this:
    $$
    f'(0) = limlimits_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}=0
    $$




    This is correct since:
    $$
    lim_{x to 0} frac{sqrt[3]{x} sin(x)-0}{x-0}
    =lim_{x to 0} sqrt[3]{x}cdot frac{ sin(x)}{x}=0.tag{1}
    $$




    However, when I use derivative rules I get that:
    $$
    f'(x) = {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}tag{2}
    $$




    (2) does not contradict (1) since (2) is only valid for $xneq 0$.




    and thus $f'(0)$ doesn't exist.




    This implication is false:



    [Edited later (thanks to comments by MMASRP63 and Paramanand Singh)]
    (2) only implies that the limit $lim_{xto 0}f'(x)$ does not exists. In other words, $f'(x)$ is not continuous at $x=0$.
    $$
    lim_{xto 0} {sin(x) frac{1}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}+cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}}
    =lim_{xto 0}frac{sin x}{x}frac{x}{3sqrt[3]{x^2}}
    +lim_{xto 0}cos(x)sqrt[3]{x}=1cdot 0+ 1cdot 0=0tag{3}
    $$

    which together with (1) implies that $f'$ is actually continuous at $x=0$.







    share|cite|improve this answer














    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer








    edited Nov 8 at 19:48

























    answered Nov 8 at 16:46









    user587192

    1,17310




    1,17310








    • 2




      I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
      – MMASRP63
      Nov 8 at 18:13








    • 1




      Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:56












    • @MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
      – user587192
      Nov 8 at 19:49










    • @ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
      – user587192
      Nov 8 at 19:49














    • 2




      I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
      – MMASRP63
      Nov 8 at 18:13








    • 1




      Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
      – Paramanand Singh
      Nov 8 at 18:56












    • @MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
      – user587192
      Nov 8 at 19:49










    • @ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
      – user587192
      Nov 8 at 19:49








    2




    2




    I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
    – MMASRP63
    Nov 8 at 18:13






    I believe that $f'$ is continuous at $x=0$ in this instance?
    – MMASRP63
    Nov 8 at 18:13






    1




    1




    Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 8 at 18:56






    Your last two sentences are incorrect and one should observe that using continuity of $f'$ at $0$ to evaluate $f'(0)$ is a very silly/roundabout method.
    – Paramanand Singh
    Nov 8 at 18:56














    @MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
    – user587192
    Nov 8 at 19:49




    @MMASRP63: I should really not do the calculation in my head. What a silly mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!
    – user587192
    Nov 8 at 19:49












    @ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
    – user587192
    Nov 8 at 19:49




    @ParamanandSingh: thank you for pointing it out!
    – user587192
    Nov 8 at 19:49










    up vote
    0
    down vote













    I want to add something to user587192's answer.



    Indeed, there is no contradiction, and



    $$lim_{x to 0} f'(x) = 0$$



    as shown before. However, if you don't want to evaluate the derivative using the formal definition, you can use a theorem:



    Suppose $f'(x)$ exists in a deleted neighbourhood of $a$ and $lim_{x to a} f'(x) $ exists and equals $L$. Then $f'(a)$ exists and equals $lim_{x to a} f'(x)$.



    This is an immediate consequence of L'Hospital's Rule. Notice that both $f(x)-a$ and $x-a$ are differentiable on a deleted neighbourhood of $a$, and $lim_{x to a} frac{f'(x)}{1}$ exists and equals $L$, we conclude that $lim_{x to a} frac{f(x)-a}{x-a}$ exists and equals $L$. Hence $f'(a)=L$.



    Indeed, in your example, it would be much faster to calculate $f'(0)$ using the formal definition. However, in some cases the above theorem does help.






    share|cite|improve this answer

























      up vote
      0
      down vote













      I want to add something to user587192's answer.



      Indeed, there is no contradiction, and



      $$lim_{x to 0} f'(x) = 0$$



      as shown before. However, if you don't want to evaluate the derivative using the formal definition, you can use a theorem:



      Suppose $f'(x)$ exists in a deleted neighbourhood of $a$ and $lim_{x to a} f'(x) $ exists and equals $L$. Then $f'(a)$ exists and equals $lim_{x to a} f'(x)$.



      This is an immediate consequence of L'Hospital's Rule. Notice that both $f(x)-a$ and $x-a$ are differentiable on a deleted neighbourhood of $a$, and $lim_{x to a} frac{f'(x)}{1}$ exists and equals $L$, we conclude that $lim_{x to a} frac{f(x)-a}{x-a}$ exists and equals $L$. Hence $f'(a)=L$.



      Indeed, in your example, it would be much faster to calculate $f'(0)$ using the formal definition. However, in some cases the above theorem does help.






      share|cite|improve this answer























        up vote
        0
        down vote










        up vote
        0
        down vote









        I want to add something to user587192's answer.



        Indeed, there is no contradiction, and



        $$lim_{x to 0} f'(x) = 0$$



        as shown before. However, if you don't want to evaluate the derivative using the formal definition, you can use a theorem:



        Suppose $f'(x)$ exists in a deleted neighbourhood of $a$ and $lim_{x to a} f'(x) $ exists and equals $L$. Then $f'(a)$ exists and equals $lim_{x to a} f'(x)$.



        This is an immediate consequence of L'Hospital's Rule. Notice that both $f(x)-a$ and $x-a$ are differentiable on a deleted neighbourhood of $a$, and $lim_{x to a} frac{f'(x)}{1}$ exists and equals $L$, we conclude that $lim_{x to a} frac{f(x)-a}{x-a}$ exists and equals $L$. Hence $f'(a)=L$.



        Indeed, in your example, it would be much faster to calculate $f'(0)$ using the formal definition. However, in some cases the above theorem does help.






        share|cite|improve this answer












        I want to add something to user587192's answer.



        Indeed, there is no contradiction, and



        $$lim_{x to 0} f'(x) = 0$$



        as shown before. However, if you don't want to evaluate the derivative using the formal definition, you can use a theorem:



        Suppose $f'(x)$ exists in a deleted neighbourhood of $a$ and $lim_{x to a} f'(x) $ exists and equals $L$. Then $f'(a)$ exists and equals $lim_{x to a} f'(x)$.



        This is an immediate consequence of L'Hospital's Rule. Notice that both $f(x)-a$ and $x-a$ are differentiable on a deleted neighbourhood of $a$, and $lim_{x to a} frac{f'(x)}{1}$ exists and equals $L$, we conclude that $lim_{x to a} frac{f(x)-a}{x-a}$ exists and equals $L$. Hence $f'(a)=L$.



        Indeed, in your example, it would be much faster to calculate $f'(0)$ using the formal definition. However, in some cases the above theorem does help.







        share|cite|improve this answer












        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer










        answered Nov 9 at 7:44









        tonychow0929

        15612




        15612






























             

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